Friendly text = easily understood

[cyntss]

We received already a couple of requests from people not understanding exactly the difference between Tumbleweed and Leap (or other distribution names).

Having a closer look at the text that initially describes Tumbleweed and Leap (not to mention inside the Read More), I personally sense much structure in it and that makes it a bit more complicated to understand the difference...to find the point.

I want to propose to change the wording a bit, make it more user friendly. Make a text in 1st person (well, it currently is in 1st person) and make a simple explanation of them, i.e.:

Tumbleweed

I want to have the latest packages as they become available.
Download

Leap

I want to have the most stable release to rely on.
Download.

Just proposals to show the direction (I think) the initial text should take in order to become friendlier.

[cyntss]

@ddemaio whenever you have time to look into this, it'd be great 👍

[aspiers]

Yes! This sounds great. It's similar to what I was trying to achieve in #38, although the idea behind the table was to give a little more technical detail. But for the first landing page, these two friendly sentences sound perfect to me.

[sysrich]

+1 works for me.. I want to add more words but that would just ruin
it..simple, effective, great :)

On 11 March 2016 at 16:46, Adam Spiers [email protected] wrote:

Yes! This sounds great. It's similar to what I was trying to achieve in
#38 #38, although the
idea behind the table was to give a little more technical detail. But for
the first landing page, these two friendly sentences sound perfect to me.

—
Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#84 (comment)
.

[lnussel]

fine with me

[hennevogel]

1. The choice between tumbleweed and leap is tough to make if you are a long time openSUSE user
2. Its very hard for someone who is "just "new to openSUSE, not new to Linux
3. It's impossible to make for someone new to Linux
4. It's the first thing we present on opensuse.org where we try to convince people to use any openSUSE

Find the error ;-)

If this is something you want to change I would strongly suggest that you drop this choice altogether. Push people to use Leap and tell them about Tumblweed some time afterward. Especially as it's relatively easy to move from Leap to Tumbleweed right?

[aspiers]

1. I disagree - why do you think that? I'm a long-term openSUSE user, and it's easy for me to make the choice. I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for other long-term users.
2. It's very hard without the right information, but a combination of a) short phrases like @cyntss suggests and b) something like the simple feature matrix I suggested in Add Leap / Tumbleweed comparison table #38 it should be easy.
3. "Impossible" is an over-generalization, but I'd agree it's very hard without 2 a) and b) above. However with that information, I'd say it's quite condescending to suggest that all Windows or Mac users are incapable of grasping the concept of "stable" vs. "latest packages". Honestly, it's not rocket science.
4. Yes, it is ;-)

I fairly strongly disagree with the idea of dropping the choice. ICBW but I thought openSUSE was not aiming to be the next replacement for Windows or MacOS X (if it is, we have a huge fight with Ubuntu on our hands). Instead I thought we were targeting people who are a little more technical and looking for a distro with more power and flexibility. This certainly seems to be backed up by the slogan "The makers' choice for sysadmins, developers and desktop users."

In that case, we shouldn't treat prospective new users like dummies who are incapable of making intelligent decisions by themselves. Instead we should equip them with the information they need, taking care to present it clearly and not to overwhelm them with too much detail too early.

Additionally Tumbleweed is something unique which only we offer. So if you hide it away from prominent view then we are immediately losing a USP.

I really don't see the problem with adopting @cyntss's excellent proposal. The wording is definitely an improvement in clarity and simplicity over the existing text. But I still believe that there is a need for a click-through to a page offering more detail for the more technically curious, and that a simple comparison matrix like the one I suggested in #38 is an easy way to achieve this.

[hennevogel]

1. Because you have to be sure what your use cases are and have to project how stuff will evolve regarding those use cases. A lot of use cases for openSUSE are in the gray area between stable and bleeding edge. Then it's a decision that is tough to make.
2. Rolling releases are not very wide spread in the realm of Linux distributions. Especially the more end user focused distributions, from which people will most likely switch to openSUSE, don't have anything like that. So this is a matter of explaining a whole new concept (rolling) to people. I doubt mentioning the concept in a feature comparison table and reducing it to 'latest packages' is going to help people much to decide.
3. If you think that it's condescending to suggest that people new to Linux have a hard time to grasp the concept of software management on Linux I would like to invite you to join our forums ;-) It's not rocket science but it's fundamentally different from their current understanding of how this computer stuff works. BTW I'm not suggesting that people can't learn this, I'm saying that it's not very nice to make them decide based on this concept which is a mystery to them. Most of them won't know, lot's of them will pick one at random BUT lot's of them will just close the tab and go elsewhere.

I'm not suggesting to hide Tumbleweed. I'm suggesting to pre-select a choice, then educate people on their ability to change this selection and when they should change it.

[sysrich]

I agree with @aspiers and @cyntss

Sorry henne, it's 2016, we cant assume our users are all idiots

[aspiers]

@hennevogel:

1. Because you have to be sure what your use cases are and have to project how stuff will evolve regarding those use cases. A lot of use cases for openSUSE are in the gray area between stable and bleeding edge. Then it's a decision that is tough to make.

I really don't believe most people plan their choice of desktop distro anywhere near that carefully, in terms of use cases. I think it's far simpler: either you are a developer/active contributor who wants to dedicate time to helping improve the bleeding edge, or you are someone who just wants everything to work so you can get on with whatever else you care about.

1. [...] So this is a matter of explaining a whole new concept (rolling) to people

How is rolling releases difficult to understand? Everyone already knows what it's like to a) apply package updates on a regular basis (even Windows/Mac do this) and b) do a major upgrade to a new release (ditto). So the concept of a distro which avoids b) and only ever does a) is not complicated.

If you think that it's condescending to suggest that people new to Linux have a hard time to grasp the concept of software management on Linux

No, please don't misquote me - that's not what I said.

Finally, you said:

[...] I would strongly suggest that you drop this choice altogether. Push people to use Leap and tell them about Tumblweed some time afterward

and then later:

I'm not suggesting to hide Tumbleweed.

Well, it sure sounded like it from the above.

I'm suggesting to pre-select a choice, then educate people on their ability to change this selection and when they should change it.

That sounds much more reasonable to me than your first suggestion. The landing page could have some way of saying or implying "if you don't know which one to choose, pick Leap". I'm sure @cyntss could figure out the best way of doing this. But Tumbleweed is a really cool differentiator for us. We should never underestimate the power of human inertia: if we take it off the front page, we're risking it dwindling away into obscurity.

[hennevogel]

Sorry henne, it's 2016, we cant assume our users are all idiots

Hm if this is what you think I'm saying then I don't know...

[hennevogel]

I really don't believe most people plan their choice of desktop distro anywhere near that carefully

Which makes it even harder to choose between those two...

either you are a developer or you are someone who just wants everything to work

Sorry but if find this is overly simplistic. There are things in between.

How is rolling releases difficult to understand?

It isn't difficult to understand, still you have to and then understand what this means for you. Especially because, again..

a) apply package updates on a regular basis

... is an oversimplification of what Tumbleweed is. It's a road block you put up in front of people who came here because they have interest in openSUSE and you want them to try it out.

if we take it off the front page

Again, nobody want's to take Tumbleweed off the front page. We're talking about making it easier for people to get to the right openSUSE OS for them which apparently they have a hard time to...

[aspiers]

Again, nobody want's to take Tumbleweed off the front page.

OK great. But that sounds like the opposite of what you proposed 7 days ago, so you can't blame me for thinking you did :)

[sysrich]

Tumbleweed is experiencing exceptional growth at the moment, with a userbase larger than Arch and climbing.

It is a somewhat more technical offering that really is a unique selling point of the project

The Board last year decided that both of our distributions should be treated equally

I will object to any changes to the website that threaten Tumbleweeds ongoing growth in order to promote Leap first

[cyntss]

On 22 Mar 2016, at 00:08, Adam Spiers [email protected] wrote:

That sounds much more reasonable to me than your first suggestion. The landing page could have some way of saying or implying "if you don't know which one to choose, pick Leap". I'm sure @cyntss https://github.com/cyntss could figure out the best way of doing this. But Tumbleweed is a really cool differentiator for us. We should never underestimate the power of human inertia: if we take it off the front page, we're risking it dwindling away into obscurity.

After the very long discussion, I think the best will be for me to re-think the first section of the landing page and try and make it easier for users to find the right distribution for them.
I will work the UX deeply than what I initially suggested (changing text only) and hopefully find the right alternative to solve the issue.

Thank you all !

Cynthia Sanchez.
Front-end developer and UI designer.
SUSE Linux GmbH
GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg)
Maxfeldstraße 5
90409 Nürnberg
Germany

[cyntss]

This issue also covers the initial proposal from Adam
#38

I will close that issue for this reason, and I will find the proper way to integrate the table of differences as well.

[jclrb]

I love the idea of making the text more friendly. But I think there's more to it than that.

First impressions when I wanted to learn about OpenSUSE

• The emphasis on developer and admin tools seemed to scream "go away!" to a mere desktop user such as myself, because I didn't seem like the target user. I figured I could just remove any packages I didn't need, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone didn't give OpenSUSE a try because they thought it's not meant for them.
• A lot of crucial information and features are buried in the wiki when they should be on the landing page.

What I wanted to know

OpenSUSE:

• Is there an official desktop
• How long between releases
• How long are releases supported for
• Why I should use it instead of other distros (this is already on the page, but it's only useful for admins and devs, not for the average user)

Then I saw there was a rolling release too, and I wanted to know:

• Is it a development branch, like rawhide or sid (being taken to the wiki instead of a download page made me think so)
• Does it get security updates, like Leap
• Is it second class to Leap

What I wish I'd been told

• If I'm not sure, I should install Leap, then upgrade to Tumbleweed if I want to. Bonuses: 1) explains that Leap is the OpenSUSE release 2) informs existing Leap users that if they want to switch to Tumbleweed they can upgrade instead of re-installing 3) helps those with slow internet and those with data caps decide which ISO to download.

Reasons I should use OpenSUSE:

• Snapper, and its grub integration. So far I haven't had to use it but the peace of mind it gives is a beautiful thing.
• Yast, a full GUI control panel (the landing page makes it seem like no more than an installer)
• Tumbleweed is the bleeding edge distro we've all been waiting for! Many people want a reliable rolling release, but no distro ever got it exactly right. This is unique and a huge selling point.

[jclrb]

Tumbleweed and Leap are side by side on the landing page, making it a 50/50 choice for the average user. And Tumbleweed is first, even though Leap is the OpenSUSE release (like 13, 12, etc), How about making it a 75/25 choice?

[ GIMP Source ]

• Leap: removed latest from latest regular release version. It's not needed, it's not like you'd offer the old release. It also adds confusion, because if someone wants the latest, they'd go with tumbleweed.
• Tumbleweed: features sounds friendlier than packages.

[sleep-walker]

Please no, 50/50 is good choice. Rolling release distro is killer feature.

[jclrb]

I agree very much and wish Tumbleweed was the default. I would rather put Tumbleweed up top and then Leap underneath as an alternative. It's not my decision to make. Leap seems to be OpenSUSE's suggestion for the average user, but 50/50 seems to be leading to confusion so 75/25 would make it easier them to choose. Those of us who prefer a rolling release can just click Tumbleweed. And someone can always upgrade Leap to Tumbleweed if they think they made the wrong choice, so placing Leap first makes sense from that point of view too. To downgrade to Leap you'd have to download a new ISO and do a fresh install.

[aspiers]

Good points by everyone!

True rolling is a killer feature, but so is stability. Even though Tumbleweed is (I'm told) good stability, it is not as stable as Leap (otherwise there would be no point having Leap).

I think 50/50 should be fine, but if there is confusion we should simply address it and ensure the differences are really clear. That's why I originally submitted #38.

[sysrich]

This thread so far confirms to me that 50/50 is the balance we should have

Other factors to consider

• Tumbleweed is a killer feature. I agree with @jclrb that it has the potential for significant openSUSE growth and mindshare
• Tumbleweed is also where the vast majority of our contributors contribute. Leap on the otherhand has a much smaller contributor community behind it. (It is growing)
• Putting Leap as a default would negate Tumbleweeds potential, hold it back, and de-emphasise the platform which has the enthusiasm and contributors of most of our Project..that really does not make ANY sense
• That said, Leap is based on an Enterprise codebase, the SUSE Linux Enterprise codebase, the only distribution of it's type. That also is a killer feature
• Leap is also used by a lot more users than Tumbleweed
• Putting Tumbleweed as a default would hold back Leap's potential, and de-emphasise the platform which has the majority of our users...that also doesn't make any sense

50/50 is the way to go, sorry @jclrb, I cannot support anything either being put in front of the other

But I do support any change to the language of the website that helps sell Tumbleweed and Leap on their respective merits

[sysrich]

I'd like to propose the following test as a additional page/section of the landing-page to finally put this issue away. I think it's the best, shortest, most informative way of addressing the differences and respective benefits of both distributions. (If you don't agree, I plan to use it on the upcoming replacement openSUSE Download page anyway ;))

Choosing which openSUSE Distribution

openSUSE Tumbleweed is a rolling-release. This means the software is always the latest stable versions available from the openSUSE Project. Things will change regularly as Free and Open Source projects continually release new versions of their software.
Tumbleweed is recommended for Developers, openSUSE Contributors, and Linux/FOSS Enthusiasts.

openSUSE Leap is a regular-release. This means it releases annually, with security and stability updates being the priority during each release lifetime. It is not expected to change in any significant way until its next annual release.
Leap shares a Common Base System with SUSE Linux Enterprise, so major architectural changes are not expected for several years, aligned with each new Major Release (eg 12, 13, etc) of SUSE Linux Enterprise.
Leap is recommended for Sysadmins, Enterprise Developers, and 'Regular' Desktop Users.

Both distributions are well tested by openQA as well as by human openSUSE contributors so both can be relied upon to work.
Both distributions are fully capable of being used on a Desktop PC, laptop, server, or in the cloud.

If you are still not sure, download openSUSE Leap
It is easy to switch to openSUSE Tumbleweed if you change your mind later.

[cboltz]

s/Chosing/Choosing/ (or just Choose, or "Which openSUSE distribution should I use?")
I'd also s/rolling-release/rolling release/ and s/regular-release/regular release/

Also, I'd prefer to mention Leap version numbers instead of SLE version numbers.

Besides that, the text and the recommendations look good :-)

[sysrich]

Fixed the typo

I dont think we should 'fix' the version numbers - I wanted to use the opportunity to stress how Leap and SLE move together, and that's the only way of doing it without needing many more lines of explanation or very funky graphs ;) https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/open-enterprise-and-open-community-working-together?slide=50

[cornelius]

I really like the text @sysrich wrote. It gives the right balance, it's clear, and the recommendations about the audience are an excellent way to help users to choose.

I would suggest a small change to the Leap section. Saying it doesn't change sounds like it wouldn't get attention. So what about this: "openSUSE Leap is a regular release. This means it is released annually, and receives security and stability updates during its lifetime. Leap shares a Common Base System with SUSE Linux Enterprise, and major releases are aligned with the major releases of SUSE Linux Enterprise (e.g. 12, 13, etc). Don't expect major architectural changes between the major releases but a steady stream of updates keeping Leap secure and stable."

And I agree with @cboltz about the spelling of "rolling release" and "regular release". When used as an adjective and a noun as in this text it feels more right.